We all face moments when life’s demands seem to eclipse our capacity to cope. A great framework to understand when this is happening is that of the Window of Tolerance: a tool that’s crucial for maintaining our emotional equilibrium. In this episode, we talk about what the Window of Tolerance is, how you know you have been bumped out of it and how to get back into it! I share strategies that range from mindfulness practices to embracing everyday frustrations with grace. We also look at how to train to expand your Window of Tolerance through mindfulness, controlled exposure to discomfort, and the cultivation of frustration tolerance. I emphasize the role of self-care and the power of compassion over judgment, as we steer through life’s challenges. This episode unpacks the balance between resilience and vulnerability, and how both are vital in fostering confidence and joy in ourselves and our children. I hope you’ll join me!
What you will learn on this episode:
– What is the Window of Tolerance
– Discover how to recognize when you are pushed outside of your Window of Tolerance, leading to states of hyper-arousal (overwhelm) or hypo-arousal (shutdown).
– Gain insight into how stress can trigger these states
-Get strategies for expanding your Window of Tolerance,
-Understand the importance of self-care and compassion in navigating emotional fluctuations,
-Understanding how the Window of Tolerance concept can help us better support and lead our children through their tough times.
TRANSCRIPT
*This transcription below was provided for you or your convenience; please excuse any mistakes that the automated service made in translation.
Welcome to Leadership Parenting. So glad to be back with you guys today.
I’ve been working really hard behind the scenes, writing and recording furiously to prepare for a little break coming up in my schedule because I’m hoping to take a little time off to help one of my daughters. I have five kids and one of the most beautiful opportunities I have is to come and be with them after they have their babies. And this month it’s my youngest daughter’s turn to be a first-time mom and, as you can imagine, I am over the moon in excitement to meet this new little one, and I’m also so excited to be with my daughter and her husband for a couple of weeks so I could be a support to them as they enter the world of parenthood, because that time is such a huge transition, isn’t it? I mean, think about the changes we go through when we welcome our first child into the world. There’s all of the physical stuff, of course the weariness of being at the end of a pregnancy and then having the labor and delivery and figuring out how to nurse and get to know a new little person, and realizing, oh my gosh, this little person is entirely dependent upon me, upon us, and so everything can just seem overwhelming at first, and I know when it happened to me, I couldn’t even figure out how to get a shower. In the first few weeks I brought my baby first home, I felt like someone had mixed up my life, all the order and the things I knew so well, and, just like, scrambled it all up and then dropped me back into it, back into familiar territory and surroundings, with unfamiliar tasks and unfamiliar feelings, and big feelings, and I just felt so overwhelmed. Has that ever happened to you when you had your baby and maybe not. Maybe you didn’t feel overwhelmed during your postpartum, and I hope that’s true for some of you.
In my experience, becoming a parent for the first time often puts us into that place of feeling so overwhelmed. And it doesn’t just have to be our first time babies, it’s sometimes just all of the things that come with bringing a new child into the world can feel really overwhelmed. And if you haven’t felt that way with your babies, I bet you felt that some other time in your life, maybe when you first got married or started a new job or were asked to fill a new role at your kid’s school or at church, or when you moved or maybe had to put a big event on, or maybe even when you just had company coming to your house to stay. We all get feelings of being overwhelmed, which I’m going to define as experiencing something that is bigger than our capacity in that moment to handle comfortably. That is bigger than our capacity in that moment to handle comfortably. I could even say feeling the feelings that come with those situations, that are bigger than our capacity at that moment to handle, to feels like we can’t handle it quite as well, as we normally do, and a great way to look at this is through the lens of having a window of tolerance. This is a term that we use to describe the space in all of us where we can confidently and calmly handle stuff, and I like to think that I have a large window of tolerance. In fact, I’ve trained to expand my window so it can handle a lot of really hard things, and professionally that’s my job to sit with people who have experienced really difficult things, and I have had to learn to not get overwhelmed by their experience. But the window of tolerance is an interesting thing Because as a window and of course this is figurative, right, but the window itself has a size and anyone with training or not can find themselves out of their window of tolerance or, better said, out of their zone of maybe coping with the feelings that can come up for us when we’re in certain situations.
I had an experience in the airport just this week as I was traveling to my daughter’s home, and it was a little hectic and that is probably minimizing the word hectic. I was bringing a lot of things to her A huge box, like a really big, unwieldy box, so big I couldn’t carry it and a big suitcase, and I had to get it all inside the airport to check in for my flight and my husband was helping me. But you know, at the airport you can’t leave your car at the curb and just help someone inside. They’re really quick to tow your car. So the Skype. Our plan was to use the sky cap at the curb check-in and he said that the box was too big. He couldn’t do it and so we had to go inside. But I couldn’t even lift the box or move it by myself. So my husband quickly went in search of. What I’ve realized later was he was going to look for a luggage cart, but he just kind of disappeared and I thought he went inside to the counter. So I went inside. But it ended up that he was still outside looking for me and I was being told inside by like three different airline personnel to go different places to check in and I couldn’t find him.
And you guys, I literally started to feel like I was going to cry. My chest got tight, I could feel the tears stinging, I was panicky and then the tears actually started to come and I was still trying to talk to people and I was literally bumping into the poles as I was dragging this big suitcase behind me. You know those poles that set up the lines you have to stand in and my luggage was bumping into them and tipping them over and I just looked like a clumsy, disorganized, crying mess and I didn’t know where to go. I felt so jumbled and confused and inept, like I was a child or something, not the adult and competent like I usually am.
And the flight was really early in the morning because it was a super busy weekend in Austin. A big event had happened and the airport was just really busy. So there were people everywhere and I was really worried about getting through security in time, which is why we were there early, which meant I had to get up early that morning, which meant I hadn’t gotten much sleep. And the other thing that was going on was part of the reason why I didn’t get much sleep was because we had a house full of company family that had come in the week before for a really fun and great visit, and I was hosting them right up until the time I left for the airport. In fact, they were still at my house staying past my leaving and while I was there, you know, I was cooking and playing with the kids and doing all those fun things you do when you have people stay at your house. So I was up later than I should have been, playing games and talking, and I only got about four hours of sleep.
And then, on top of that, I’d been having this terrible rib pain. I’d been injured, actually, at the chiropractor, and I’d just been at the ER two days before to see if my ribs were broken because they were so painful, they hurt so bad and so lifting and carrying things was just not an option for me so, and I couldn’t even take a deep breath without it hurting. And then on top of that, okay, so I’m setting the stage for y’all, for you to see kind of the perfect storm that was going on for me, why I was standing in the airport crying, but on top of having sore ribs and not getting enough sleep and having to host everybody that I absolutely loved, but the timing of the trip was kind of crazy. Then there was also this feeling of sadness inside because I was leaving my husband for almost three weeks and I was super excited to be with my daughter but really sad to leave my sweetheart. So I was kind of tender about that too, especially not feeling well. So I’m sure this all was impacting me, all this vulnerability in my physiology.
Now these are big words. Big words I’m using on purpose vulnerability and my physiology because it helps to understand what was going on. I’m a very competent put together person, but you wouldn’t know it by looking at me that morning in the airport. I was fumbling around, crying, getting overwhelmed, not thinking clearly, and it’s all because I was past my point. I was out of my window of tolerance.
Now the window of tolerance is a psychological concept used to describe the optimal arousal state in which a person is able to effectively process and respond to stress, and the person who named it is Dan Siegel. He’s a great neuroscientist. He helps us understand a lot of concepts in the brain that are very complex, and he uses the words window of tolerance to really help people who have been in traumatic experiences to be able to understand why the trauma affects them so seriously and why it has such a huge effect on their bodies. But, as my example illustrates, it can also apply to our everyday lives when we’re experiencing any kind of dysregulation emotionally, and you’ll know with working with me over this last year that we use that word emotional dysregulation when it feels like our emotions are out of our ability to kind of deal with. They feel big, they feel stormy, they feel overwhelming Within our window of tolerance.
So I want you to literally imagine if I were to take a piece of paper and draw a square or a rectangle on the paper and I’ll say this is your window of tolerance. Anything that happens in your life that’s inside this box, it means you’ve got the resources and the skill set to be able to cope with it. And then anytime that box gets full, that window kind of gets packed or something’s too big to fit inside your skill set or your emotional regulation, at that time it’s going to bump you out of that window of tolerance. So when you’re in the window of tolerance you’re going to feel calm and focused and just like you got it, I’ve got this, and you’ll be able to problem solve and kind of maintain healthy relationships and be empathic and understand other people’s point of view and ultimately in this discussion, kind of effectively manage your emotions. You can handle the things that come your way. And so you could also say you know we’re in a state of equilibrium, we’ve got kind of a balance where we can navigate the challenges without being overwhelmed or shutting down.
But when stressors get too intense or when maybe we’ve had something very traumatic, so something happens to us that far exceeds our ability to cope, or we have a memory of that when that happened to us before, those things might move us out of our window of tolerance. You can go out one of two ways. You can get into what we call hyper arousal, which means kind of wound up, fight or flight mode, when we get overwhelmed by our stress and our sympathetic nervous system becomes activated and this will show up like anxiety, anger, agitation, panic, and in this state we feel out of control and we might get really reactive or even cry. In an airport, like I did, I was literally in hyper arousal state. I felt flooded, I felt like things were coming at me so fast and I was responding with that panicky feeling. My heart was pounding, I felt like I got hot, I felt like I couldn’t breathe, I felt like the tears were coming, I was anxious and I spun upward in intensity. I didn’t yell, but I could have. If my tendency, if my nervous system had a tendency to kind of lash out in anger, then you would have seen me yell, and you’ve probably been around people when they get overwhelmed. You’ll see them get angry. Instead, mine spun up into more of an anxiety and I got that almost kind of panicky feeling.
So that’s one way we can get out of the window of tolerance. Another way is to go into what we call hypo-arousal. So hyper means we have more energy and hypo means we have less. And this is where we can kind of go to an emotionally numb place or check out mentally or even dissociate, which is a term that means we kind of go away, disconnect from our current reality and disappear or get really quiet. In hypo arousal state there’s that shutdown from emotions, from our surroundings, and sometimes that will make us withdraw or disconnect or detach. It’s really important that we understand the concept of window of tolerance for ourselves and for those we love and take care of, because knowing this helps us literally understand what’s going on when we have a meltdown experience in an airport.
And okay, knowing that didn’t stop it right immediately from happening, but once I realized it I was already there, I had to deal with it, but it made it simpler. I was able to see oh yeah, I’m out. I’m really having a moment here where my nervous system is panicking because all of a sudden I was okay and handling things and then, boom, I got knocked out of my coping zone. It had been building, of course, the things were stacking up and I was keeping it together until the check-in time came and then not being able to find my husband and people telling me different things, well, it put me over the top. It was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Let’s see what other phrases do we use to describe this? I was out of sorts. We use this phrase to describe how we’re just not ourselves right, like I’m in sorts. That’s a kind of a weird phrase, but that means I’m doing things like I normally would. I’m okay. But when I’m out of sorts, I’m disconnected, I’m not able to do my normal thing, or I’m losing my cool. Normally, in my window of tolerance, I can handle this, but when I’m losing my cool, I know that I now have been bumped out of my window of tolerance. It doesn’t matter really what bumped me out. I mean, of course we can look at that and maybe problem solve for that later, but just knowing this isn’t what I’m normally doing and now I’m out of my window of tolerance can be helpful.
Let’s see another phrase breaking point. I’ve hit my breaking point. I could handle it up till now, but boom, that thing knocked me out. I’m flipping out. I’ve heard people say where I’m. You know, that’s probably exactly describing. I was in the window of tolerance and now I just flipped out of it. Okay, on the other side. So you know, I look at this as like a window. Right, if I put that box, that rectangle box, on a page and I’m going to list above there the things that are knocking me out of the window of tolerance, into that hyper arousal where I’m losing it, I’m losing my cool, I’m flipping out, and then I could go to the bottom of the window of tolerance. This is where I’m going down in energy. That’s the hypo arousal and we use words like I’m just shutting down or I’m just checking out. I’m going down in energy. That’s the hypo arousal and we use words like I’m just shutting down or I’m just checking out, I’m out of here. So this isn’t a brand new concept to us. We’ve been alluding to it for years in our phrases and our language.
But I want you guys to know that this is a real thing and it happens to everyone, and it’s because you have a nervous system, not because you’re broken or something is wrong with you, and it’s happening to your kids and your spouses and your bosses and the people that work for you. This is something that comes to us because we’re human. Your nervous system has an automatic sensor that’s sensitive to things, and the amount of resources you have and the amount of stressors you have are being kind of balanced all the time. So it’s helpful for me to know this, as I’m watching myself have a hard time. It can actually make more sense, and when something makes sense to me, it calms down my nervous system. When something doesn’t make sense to us, it actually triggers our nervous system that something’s dangerous, and then we have more of the problem happening, where we feel out of control in one of the two ways hyper or hypo arousal. So knowing this actually helps us to start to be able to regulate our nervous systems, which means to connect and calm them, and that’s going to feel better and you will be much more able to talk and speak the words you want to and act in the way you want to. But when we don’t know what’s going on, we will get more afraid and anxious and then we’re really increasing the distress and going more and more out of the window of tolerance.
So, as a parent, when you understand this is what’s happening with your children, when you understand this is what’s happening with your children, that little children have very tiny windows of tolerance. Your infants have almost zero windows of tolerance. There’s not much space there for them. They cannot tolerate waiting to be fed or changed or held or deal with being sleepy. And as your kids grow, you’ll start to see their capacity grow to tolerate discomfort. I always want you to be looking at it this way. My child is growing their capacity to tolerate stress, discomfort and all those emotions that come with life. Super helpful, right. Totally changed how I look at people when I understand that Next time you see someone standing in a public place with tears streaming down their face or yelling, losing it, it’s so helpful to be able to go.
Wow, that’s a nervous system thing. Sure, they may make some choices that contribute to that. I get that. There are things that we can do to work on this and we’re going to talk about that in a minute. But really we don’t get anywhere if we go into judgment about how bad this is, because it’s happening, and it happens because we have that nervous system. Okay, so what do we do when we’re in this situation?
Well, you might remember an early, early, early episode in this podcast on SAFE that’s an acronym S-A-F-E how to get through emotional storms. Well, this is the pattern for getting regulated and getting back into your window of tolerance. It requires us to be aware, and that’s what we’re talking about today being aware that you even have a window of tolerance and recognizing when you’re out of it. And with the SAFE process, we use all those letters as an acronym to S slow things down. A to acknowledge what you’re feeling. F to get flexible about what you’re thinking and start working with all of those thoughts and feelings and then choosing what you’re going to do, which is the E to engage in what matters to you. I really encourage you to go back, even if you’ve listened to the SAFE process before, in these early episodes of this podcast. I encourage you to go back, even if you’ve listened to the safe process before in these early episodes of this podcast. I encourage you to go back.
It’s a whole series. I think there are five episodes on it maybe where we talk about, introduce the concept and then we spend an episode for every letter of the word safe. It’s a great refresher. It’s something that we all really need to keep top of mind to help us remember how to calm ourselves down and work with ourselves when we are out of our windows of tolerance. You know we often refer to being value-driven rather than emotion-driven, and I’m going to do an episode on that too, because I think it’s really important to help us focus on what we’re actually going to do.
We’re in the middle of all of these difficult things in life. What matters really to us, what creates happiness, is how much we’re connected to the things that we care about and that matter to us. In other words, how are we going to act in spite of all the big emotions that we have? So it’s not just relief from painful feelings, but also how do I feel strong enough to do the things that matter to me, to be able to maintain my relationships and to not scream at everybody at the airport or pull myself together enough to be able to communicate with the people around me so that I can actually get on the flight? That’s what I did in the airport. I started the safe process. I took some slower breaths. I put my hand on my chest. I’m feeling sad. I’m afraid I’m just overwhelmed right now. I’m tired, my ribs hurt, I’m overwhelmed by a lot of things and of course, that’s all okay. There’s the flexibility. I started talking to myself it’s okay. It’s okay, if the box doesn’t get checked in time, I can always get a different flight. I’m going to be okay. That’s the self-talk I’m starting to use.
And my sweet husband finally found me standing there a little bit distraught and handed off the big box on a luggage cart he’d had gone to find. And a nice lady finally saw my distress and literally took my cart and escorted me to the right counter. And all the while I was saying to myself I can do this, I can figure this out. This is not the end of the world. And I will say, as a side effect of losing your coal in the airport and tears, is that maybe someone will have compassion on you and take charge. And I wish I could find that lady and thank her. Just a side note, you guys, about how the kindness of others really makes a difference in our lives. Right, I’m always wanting to be that kind person for someone. She didn’t assume I was crazy. She just saw my distress without judgment and helped me, and I’m really, really grateful for that.
And then, finally, I got into line and I could feel, you know, into the security line and I could feel my heart and breathing get a little bit calmer. And then my husband who’s so sweet, you know, he had to leave me there with the cart with that big box on it because he, the car, our car, was at the curb still and it was going to get towed, so. But he went and parked it and he ran back inside to make sure that I’d been able to get everything checked in. So he literally found me in the security line and kind of scooted his excuse me, pardon me got up next to where I was standing to give me another hug and kiss, and I, you know, was still kind of teary eyed, which made me cry more when he was there. So.
So the people around us probably thought, oh gosh, I don’t even know what they thought. They probably thought I was a mess. I don’t even care, it was just me out of my window of tolerance. And it happens, it happens to all of us. So can we just be compassionate for other people and for ourselves, and I believe we can, and I’m practicing that myself. You know, and probably this helps me actually to share this with you. It helps me to really confess that we don’t have to have it all together, that we don’t have to be perfect, that this happens even to the people that train you how to stay in the window of tolerance Happens even to us. The window of tolerance provides a framework for understanding how people regulate emotions, how we can recognize when we’re in our window of tolerance, and that when we’re there, we can better manage stress and, you know, kind of prevent ourselves from getting overwhelmed or shutting down. And this is part of what we’re training for as well. So you kind of can see, okay, what are the things that bump me out of my window of tolerance and how do I work on, maybe next time, helping myself cope with that or be prepared in a better way.
So think about when this happens to you. What does it look like when you’re out of your window of tolerance? Are you more likely to feel afraid and anxious and get into those hyper arousal states where you get worked up? And what do you do when that happens? What do your kids do when that happens to them or your spouse? And what about the hypo arousal states when you feel like you’re shutting down, when you have that argument where you just turned off inside and had to walk away, or that scary thing that happened to you where you got really quiet and small and kind of disappeared or withdrew like? What about when your spouse has that happen or your kids are doing that? Can you start to see it through the lens of window of tolerance? I think it’s helpful. This lens gives us some understanding so we can make sense of what’s happening, and it keeps us out of that judgment. Whenever we can go for understanding rather than judgment, we’re going to be protecting our relationships and we’re helping our nervous systems because we’re not taking it so personally.
The woman who helped me in the airport could have gone into judgment. She could have said sheesh, this weak crybaby lady here can’t even get checked in. Gosh, I hate this job, having to deal with crybabies like this. Instead, she just saw my distress and helped me. I wish I could have had a sign on my chest that says I’m usually a very competent and confident person, just having a bad couple of moments right now out of my window of tolerance. Maybe we could make a sign that says that, so that people won’t judge us.
And when we are able to understand that we have our own overwhelm, we have our own sense of being knocked out of our window of tolerance, we can even slow down our own judgment toward ourselves. Start with compassion. Every time we start with compassion, we’re actually stabilizing ourselves and other people. And when we do that, we start to bring ourselves back into the window of tolerance. Okay, what can we do? Well, we can use that safe process as we talked about. Honestly, just knowing you have a window of tolerance helps you get back into it. That self-awareness and self-connection is the first step. But you can also train to expand by practicing consciously to put yourself in situations where you know or you expect you’ll feel some kind of overwhelm, and then you do it anyway. You do it by choice and when this happens, we aim to increase our capacity to tolerate distress and practice regulating our emotions, and we use things like mindfulness, grounding exercises, working with our self-talk, learning to feel safe while our body is stressing out. Those are all the elements of that safe process and a fun way to practice.
This is like with a bowl of ice, where you know putting your hand into a bowl of ice is going to be really cold. It’s not something we like to do and if you keep it in too long it’ll actually hurt, and I don’t recommend you do keep it in very long. You don’t want to get like frostbite or hurt your hands. But when you do it on purpose, for just a short amount of time, with the plan that you’re going to work with how uncomfortable it feels and you’re going to breathe through it and you’re going to just notice how it feels, that’s the mindfulness and you’re going to get flexible and say, wow, this is I’m experiencing window of tolerance. When you do that with your own choice, you are going to increase your window of tolerance, because one of the things that puts us out of the window of tolerance is when we lose control. It’s the biggest one, in fact, and I call the hallmark of trauma that loss of control. So when you do anything hard with some amount of control, like you’re choosing to do it, you have one foot inside your window of tolerance with your choice, and then you’re doing something that would normally take you out of your window of tolerance. Combined, those two things are going to help you practice this.
So cold exposure is one of these powerful training techniques. Doing it with a bowl of ice. If you really want to get brave, do it with a cold shower or a cold water plunge. There’s actually some really great research now on how cold therapy purposely going into situations where you are experiencing cold, like going into an ice bath or into a cold shower how that actually helps you learn to regulate your nervous system. It’s because of this window of tolerance concept you are purposely going in, telling your mind I’m choosing to do this really hard thing and I know it’s going to make me feel crazy inside, I know it’s going to knock me out of my window of tolerance and I’m just going to breathe through it. I’m going to practice stretching and expanding that window by choice.
Another way we can do this, especially if you don’t like the cold, is to practice frustration tolerance where, on purpose, you could pick the longest line at the grocery store and practice calming your body, calming your thoughts and getting used to being frustrated on purpose. Or doing a puzzle, especially if puzzles aren’t your favorite thing where you have to try out the pieces and they don’t always fit quickly and you have to deal with being frustrated. So in your daily life you can look for situations where you’re usually frustrated, where your kids maybe aren’t listening or not going as fast as you want them to, or maybe you’ve got a sink full of dishes and someone else was supposed to do them and you’re just going to yell at them and get them to do it, or complain to them, or you’re going to go do it yourself and maybe what you do is you practice just walking by them and not doing anything about it, breathing, staying mindful, recognizing that you can tolerate not having something done that you expected to be done and that you can be okay. That would be stretching your window of tolerance. Let’s see, you might practice this when you’re sitting in traffic, allowing yourself to notice. This is a frustrating moment If it’s really a lot of traffic or the conditions are just right. This could knock me out of my window of tolerance, but today I’m going to make it a practice session. So even when you say that to yourself, you’re getting a little distance from it. Right, you’re seeing it as a situation where you have options. This is that flexibility that we’re talking about. It helps you grow your window of tolerance, literally making it bigger.
Another thing we can do is focus on our own care, making sure that we get enough sleep, we fuel our body so we don’t get that hangry feeling, right, or we’re not on those crazy sugar highs where they lift us up high and then drop us really down low, and we can stay hydrated and move our bodies. Every time we do that, we are actually removing things that could make our resources smaller, right. In other words, we’re filling our tank of coping, so we have more coping skills that’s a better way to say it and we’re able to kind of handle more challenges inside our window of tolerance. So think about the times when you’re rested and you’re not starving and you just feel good about your body and how you’ve taken care of it, and you have a stressful day. Well, I’m taking it in stride, right, but, like when you don’t have enough sleep or you’re sick, you don’t feel good. Those challenges seem so much harder to deal with.
So taking care of yourself physically helps you emotionally, and the same is true for the people that we love, especially our kids. So if this is great information for us, I hope you can be a little gentler with yourselves the next time you get dumped out of the window of tolerance and you could be like oh yeah, I can see what happened here. I just need some things. I need some care, I need some patience, I need some connection, maybe a little bit of a feeling of control over something to help me get stabilized. And I want you to be thinking this way for your children too, or your spouse, the people that you care about. It just makes our human behavior so much less scary and gives us back a little bit more control in our lives. This is part of resilience and I’m so happy to have this time to study it with you guys.
So please love yourselves through your nervous systems ups and downs. Consider practicing a few little frustration tolerance exercises. Pick something safe. It doesn’t have to be radically hard. Next time you’re at the grocery store, purposely go in the longer line. Breathe through that feeling of frustration. Go back and listen to the safe episodes where you can learn how to calm and soothe your body during those kind of big emotions. And consider leaning on compassion rather than judgment. It serves us so much better and it makes us feel so much safer and more loved and connected.
Thanks so much for your time today. I hope you all have chances to love yourselves through your nervous systems ups and downs. I’ll talk to you all again next week. Take good care. The Leadership Parenting Podcast is for general information purposes only. It is not therapy and should not take the place of meeting with a qualified mental health professional. The information on this podcast is not intended to diagnose or treat any condition, illness or disease. It’s also not intended to be legal medical or therapeutic advice. Please consult your doctor or mental health professional for your individual circumstances. Thanks again and take care.